Resleeving, Could it Work on AE?

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Beatrix
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:17 pm

Sat May 23, 2020 1:57 am

So the OOC meeting discussion topic I'd like to bring to the forums for people to comment and offer their thoughts on is:

With After Earth's theme being very cyberpunk and sci fi orientated, it seems like some thing like stacks from Altered Carbon, or our own creepier and morally ambiguous version of it could suit the game well. So, keen to hear players and staff feed back on this. Could you see this happening on AE? How do you think something like this could be implemented that still sees death as being something to be feared and meaningful? What are your general thoughts on the concept?
You can read about the discussions had so far during it here: https://forums.ae-mud.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=935#p935

So keen to hear your thoughts!

Kyushu
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 3:28 pm

Sat May 23, 2020 3:43 pm

I like that idea.

It's completely themely, and would just fit really well into the game.
And it would not only help to encourage risk-taking, but also allow anyone to make his own character vulnerable in one way or another. Leave trails, love, caress, have allies you care about and sometimes fuck up terribly on purpose while stealing, scamming, murdering, plotting..

I picked a few things of the log I really like:

Even though it might add an extra layer of protection from a pkill, perhaps other rules to protect could be scaled back a little. Most of the important things have been said in the log already, here are my favorite ones:

Autumn says, "It could be done in such a way that still makes death hella scary. For example, losing stats, skills, or a significant time delay."

Niamh states, "There's something appealing about the idea of killing somebody solely to run them through their stacks and make them more cautious. >_>"

Anomaly claims, "If we did it, I'd probably push to make it A) Wildly Expensive - this drives conflict with the upper crust of society and B) Have the stat degeneration. C) You'd lose things you had in your last body like all of your cybernetics."

Autumn questions, "So increasing cost the more you get restacked?"

Autumn claims, "You could have two resleeve options: you could get a random resleeve. Or you could grow one to look like your old form."

Dragonfly
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm

Sat May 23, 2020 7:19 pm

I admit that I'm of a very torn mind on this.

On one hand, I agree it would be within theme and might encourage conflict that has high stakes but in a world with ramped up combat would help buffer to make any single exchange a one and done. It would also give more punishment options to law-enforcement types.

I do have outstanding questions though:

- What the policy/expectations will be about continuing RP from a past "sleeve?"

- Are people going to be able to sleeve into other PCs bodies and essentially "pass" as them? Does that potentially bring up consent concerns?

- How many times can people resleeve? Will you have people RPing Peers as Methuselahs who are hundreds of years old? (We already have a storyline going that seems to imply something like this.) Or would we introduce this tech as new when it hits grid?

- I feel like you might need to have a party neutral but fairly expensive option (whether that's in credits/QP or otherwise) wherein essentially getting on the wrong side of certain PCs doesn't completely cut you out of this option.

Viridian
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Discord: Viridian

Sat May 23, 2020 9:30 pm

Dragonfly wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:19 pm
I admit that I'm of a very torn mind on this.

On one hand, I agree it would be within theme and might encourage conflict that has high stakes but in a world with ramped up combat would help buffer to make any single exchange a one and done. It would also give more punishment options to law-enforcement types.

I do have outstanding questions though:

- What the policy/expectations will be about continuing RP from a past "sleeve?"

- Are people going to be able to sleeve into other PCs bodies and essentially "pass" as them? Does that potentially bring up consent concerns?

- How many times can people resleeve? Will you have people RPing Peers as Methuselahs who are hundreds of years old? (We already have a storyline going that seems to imply something like this.) Or would we introduce this tech as new when it hits grid?

- I feel like you might need to have a party neutral but fairly expensive option (whether that's in credits/QP or otherwise) wherein essentially getting on the wrong side of certain PCs doesn't completely cut you out of this option.
So I think these are a lot of good questions that sleeves need to have be way more defined to answer. Here's my thoughts on sleeves:

If we're modeling after Altered Carbon, I believe the sleeves were able to remember their former bodies. I think this point is what's going to cause concern for a lot of people, because sleeving can be meta'd (I've gotten into too much trouble with CorpSec with sleeve A, so let me just switch).

In my opinion, I think sleeving has so many benefits that it needs to be costly and I don't mean by credits. If someone is going to re-sleeve, you have to have a damn good reason to do so. Therefore, I actually don't suggest that sleeves "remember" their past one. Maybe they can figure out they're sleeves (a painful wound on the back of their neck) but the character needs to go through a lot in preparation (moving accounts, leaving emails, etc). It should be disorienting for the new sleeve. In addition, sleeves should not be able to sleeve into other bodies, pretty much period. Unless there is some plot related reason of switching bodies, if Sleeve A wants to go into Sleeve B, which is already occupied, Sleeve B has to agree or be kidnapped and forced. We're a non-consent MUD, so this can happen, but this isn't hippity-hopping around for convenience.

As far as how many times to resleeve, I don't think there should be a code restriction. Again, it comes down to cost beyond credits. I suggested (along with others) that resleeving takes a hit to stats (to be determined) as well as essense. Personally, I think the costs should get exponential after each sleeve, making it more and more expensive to keep doing it. In my mind, this balances the old characters with the new, since again, there's so much cost involved. You could have people playing methuselahs, but like Vampire: the Masquerade, the methuselahs were vulnerable and treating their own bodies as temples, because the risk versus reward has gotten so great.

Obviously, to do the sleeve, I think the game needs experts, likely from Humanadyne, but I'm conflicted as to whether this should function under one org. I think there needs to be a facility for sleeving, with characters who are experts in doing them. I also liked Fringe's idea that not every sleeve takes and has a potential to fail. I'm not sure if this will pkill the character or just not happen, you take maybe a minor stat/essense hit, and enjoy being fucked.

Overall, I think this fits the game's theme and think it can be done, as long as it's balanced. I tend to go for more expense over the reward, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

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Beatrix
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:17 pm

Sun May 24, 2020 5:04 am

I think, my ideal implementation of this, would be one where there was significant loss from the re-sleeving, including:

+ A tiny reduction of the max caps of stats each time. (1-2 points).
+ A small recoverable reduction of stats each time.
+ A recoverable reduction of skills each time (converted to xp, can be re-pooled).
+ A time delay of 1 OOC week between when the re-sleeving process begins and reanimation.

I'm dubious about permanent amnesia. I think this would get old very fast. A temporary confusion for a few weeks? Sure. But nothing permanent.

Whether someone could be re-sleeved into only their existing form, a random one, or look like someone else, I think is something that would be handled largely ICly. There could be some awesome RP had there with all of the above, with varying options available for credits. And, of course, ways to obviously tell. Everyone would retain the same TIN of course, the ID data coming through from the stacks.

Some of the benefits I see to this:

+ People might be more willing to get involved in conflict on grid, less concern about dying or knowing that if they do, there's the possibility of options.
+ CorpSec can hold public (or secret!) executions where they kill someone for their crimes, allowing them to be re-sleeved. Effectively that would become a part of their punishment set.
+ Options to antag someone by sending them to be re-sleeved.
+ Fun options for Humanadyne RP, gives them an edge they do not currently have.
+ Can tie in with The Collective, with the vat requirements.
+ Can tie into CorpSec with regulations for use.
+ Can tie into Syndicate with bounties to sleeve someone.
+ I'm sure that Five can figure out some way to exploit it.
+ Morally questionable things can go on behind the scenes.
+ Option for groups or people to protest this as being 'unnatural'.

+ Just generally awesome, creepy and fun cyber-punky RP.

Dragonfly
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm

Sun May 24, 2020 4:29 pm

Whether someone could be re-sleeved into only their existing form, a random one, or look like someone else, I think is something that would be handled largely ICly.
I'll admit I have a slight concern that looking like other people could lead to some kind of awkward Uther Pendragon type situation. Which while that might be an interesting story line, raises some potential questions about consent and meta.

Richard
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:11 am

Sun May 24, 2020 5:09 pm

I'm of a mixed opinion on resleeving. It fits in well, but does inevitably push the edge of the current game's themes more heavily towards pure transhumanism, especially with further technological developments that logically follow the ability to change bodies at will. We'd lean away from Cyberpunk 2020 and more into Eclipse Phase.

I believe there would need to be some IC technobabble related to cyberpsychosis about how 'the psyche best handles its original body or a close replica' or 'neural patterns were only intended for the brain they originated from'. Since all stats except Charisma are tied to a person's physical form, it does not make sense to be able to resleeve into a different form and expect to come out with similar numbers. This would also raise the IC questions of why all the rich clients of Humanadyne do not use their riches to sleeve into perfect vat-grown organic bodies with 90 in every stat to lord over the dregs of humanity, or why the elite special forces of the Ascendancy aren't allowed to borrow bespoke full-body cyborg models that could overhead press a frigate. It makes sense for a fictional series, but would probably be unfun for a RP game in a genre where long-lived and high-status characters are already perceived as difficult to match or depose.

(As a primarily physical character, I may have a bit of bias. :lol: )

Fringe
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:24 pm

Mon May 25, 2020 2:01 am

I had another thought on this too, which goes back to an old idea that someone posted here months ago. What if a stack could also release itself into the Matrix and become an AI? It's just complex digital information, right?

It would have to be an extremely risky procedure to do that, and risks destroying the stack completely. 'Cause if I remember correctly, outside of some memory loss, or some skill loss, a stack is simply just like a memory chip you install into new bodies right?

As for my mention on a fail chance, I figure the fail chance would likely mean the stack is also destroyed. Or it like, half-works. But my intent for that idea, was a total destruction of the Stack. It doesn't work, and the person goes through normal PK procedures. The fail chance would have to be high enough to make it risky, but low enough so that it's not impossible.

Different factors could generally count for fail chance, like, if it's an item you build/install. Skill level might checked. This was similar to how Cloning worked in LOTJ. Where it was a top tier Medic skill, but it still had a chance to fail. Also, if the clone was something made months and months ago, it'd reset your pfile to that. So if you managed to grandmaster like all three of your slots, months after last time you installed your memory to the chip, you'd be dropped back to that 'point'.

You function as if you lost all the following time from the last time you 'reboot' so to speak. This could also be something that could be built upon, and modded up to have a better chance.

All in all, whatever the process is for this thing. It should definitely be lengthy, expensive, and have a high chance of not working. In addition to like, lowering stat maxes/levels and skills. Mental Memory and Muscle Memory are two different kinds of memory. A body not used to the muscle memory of a skill you might know a lot about would still need to re-acclimate itself to the movements.

'Cause remember, we're dealing with clone bodies and basically installing a person into another body.
"I have two forces by my side
One's the truth and one's a lie
Which one's which I cannot tell
This Enigma is my hell."


"To fall, is a quiet thing. Far more terrible, is to admit it." - Darth Traya

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